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<\/h2>\n.<\/span><\/h2>\nGordon Hutchings<\/h2>\n
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John Paul Caponigro <\/strong>In a nutshell, what\u2019s great about pyro?<\/p>\nGordon Hutchings<\/strong> Morley Baer said it best in the introduction to my book. Pyro gives every photographer the opportunity to speak with conviction. Basically, from a technical standpoint it allows you to not be afraid of highlights anymore. You can print them right up to the ragged edge and you\u2019re going to get detail. It\u2019s going to give you those deep rich shadows. Otherwise, you hold back the highlights to be safe, so you don\u2019t blow them out.\u00a0 I don\u2019t have to worry about that anymore. It\u2019s almost impossible to overexpose a pyro negative. I proved to myself over and over again that you almost can\u2019t burn out because it compensates not only in the film, but it compensates when you print it. That\u2019s the magic of the stained pyro highlight. I will photograph right into light while other photographers are putting their cameras away. They literally can\u2019t do it with some film and developer combinations. It\u2019ll just burn out. But the pyro will go on and on and on. If I can see it, I can shoot it. And that gives me a great feeling of confidence. It allows you to see in new ways. It\u2019s a great tool to handle any kind of light. It\u2019s only a tool though.<\/p>\nJPC<\/strong> Which comes first, vision or technique? Or do they develop in parallel?<\/p>\nGH<\/strong> That\u2019s a good question. I have no idea. Probably technique comes first. Probably people learn a little more about technique than they know what to do with it. I certainly did. I think that happens. One person that I learned from was an old highway patrol police photographer. By God this was technique! And he didn\u2019t have any idea what he was photographing. But that was all right, I learned good lab technique from him. I try to learn something from everybody, even if I have to leave them behind after awhile. You have to know something about the technique. If you don\u2019t, your pictures won\u2019t achieve the level that you want them to. There are so many people who don\u2019t want to go through the lessons of the technique and their pictures show it. They don\u2019t match up to the vision that they think they have. Although, there are a lot of sharp pictures around that don\u2019t show anything. Ansel said, “There\u2019s nothing worse than a sharp picture of a fuzzy concept.” I think that may be true. At some point your technical skill fails you. You know, you learn a new technique and you go out and shoot. And then your vision starts to improve, you start seeing more, and then the technique isn\u2019t adequate anymore. I think that is a natural learning process. Photography is a natural combination of both the eye and the hand. They both have to work together. So you\u2019ve got to progress in both. I never stop learning. I like the whole process of photography.<\/p>\nJPC<\/strong> Do you find it difficult to work in a tradition that is so established, one that favors certain kinds of subject matter and certain kinds of looking?<\/p>\nGH<\/strong> At some point you simply have to start. My heroes were Weston and Adams. I guess I was pretty derivative of that kind of work, for a long time, and maybe my pictures still are. But, I totally ignore that. I feel completely free. I carefully avoid the art speak. I just don\u2019t want anything to do with it. I know how easy it is to sway a person\u2019s mind. I see myself and this search that I have, this inner journey. It\u2019s so easy to get pulled aside. That\u2019s why I never wanted to make a living at photography. I\u2019ve done it several times, in bits and pieces, and almost always you end up changing what you\u2019re trying to do to please other criteria.<\/p>\nWhat I\u2019ve done is maintained an almost feral attitude toward any kind of commercialism or the art world. I\u2019ve dabbled in all of them and I never have liked what I\u2019ve seen. I\u2019ve always chaffed at the bit at any kind of control or authority. So I have just avoided it. I just can\u2019t stand having anything impact what I\u2019m trying to do. Creativity is such a delicate little voice, and there are so many obstacles in the way.<\/p>\n
If you think of the pure time that you spend in doing your creative work, it\u2019s actually very small. Most of the time it\u2019s all the rest of living. If you can spend a day or two a month, you\u2019re actually doing pretty well compared to what so many people do. Even if you\u2019re a full time artist, you\u2019re spending very little time doing what you want to do. So I decided early on, after I dabbled in commercial photography and fine art, that I would rather have a day job. I\u2019ve worked part time for about 30 years for Caltrans, which is a state department of transportation in California. I work half time for them. I worked full time for awhile and I waited for an opportunity. Sometimes, when they\u2019re lean, they like to get rid of people. And they owed me some favors. I said that I\u2019d like to go half time. They said they never let a professional go half time before but since they needed to get rid of people, they allowed me to do that. So I worked a week on, a week off. I worked five days and then I had nine off. Being in civil service, I had all the medical benefits. I retired a few years ago. I retired pretty young. That was my way of keeping myself economically free so I could do what I wanted.<\/p>\n
Opposing that view is somebody like Morley Baer who felt that you have to be in photography professionally if you\u2019re going to be a photographer. That man, with an iron will, would force the world to his bidding. He was wonderful, no matter what the assignment was, he always carved out time for his own photography. He\u2019s one of the few that I could see who, with resoluteness, would do that. But I chose this other path, which, for me, worked fine. I liked it and I never regretted it. I don\u2019t consider myself a professional. Once again, I consider myself an amateur. I like that status. I\u2019m proud to be an amateur.<\/p>\n
JPC<\/strong> Sounds like beginner\u2019s mind.<\/p>\nGH<\/strong> You\u2019re speaking to a Buddhist.<\/p>\nI would not presume to think I\u2019ve come that far. I would never presume that. The other day someone was saying, “Well isn\u2019t your work somewhat derivative? It\u2019s not relevant anymore.” I got to thinking. “My God, I would love to be as irrelevant and free as a cloud or a mountain.”<\/p>\n
You can see when people start out they\u2019re very young, they\u2019re experimenting with everything, and they\u2019re doing this, and they\u2019re doing that, and they\u2019re learning, and they\u2019re doing great. But they have no work at this point and it takes them a while. As you learn what makes sense to you and as you learn what pleases something inside of you, then that begin to narrow down those options. You\u2019re not interested in this. There\u2019s nothing wrong with it, you\u2019re just not interested in it. I eventually zeroed in on the silver print. I like the window effect. That\u2019s what I look for.<\/p>\n
JPC<\/strong> The print as a window?<\/p>\nGH<\/strong> Yes, the print as a window. I want me, and I want the technique, to be out of the way of the viewer. Now I can\u2019t remove me entirely. That\u2019s impossible. But I want the viewer to be able to float in there as free as can be. That\u2019s why I use the large format and the pyro. I push the technique as hard as I can.<\/p>\nJPC<\/strong> Technical transparency?<\/p>\nGH<\/strong> Exactly. I want it to be transparent.<\/p>\nIn the eastern traditions, craft and art are almost indistinguishable. One becomes the other. There\u2019s the perfect brush stroke in calligraphy. That\u2019s craft and purity all wrapped in the one thing, one moment. Wouldn\u2019t that be nice if we could do that? That\u2019s why I pursue the transparent window. That\u2019s what I\u2019m looking for. Whether or not it works for other people or not is not really a prerequisite for me. It\u2019s greatly edifying to me that other people like to look at my work. But, it\u2019s a very personal search. Because I\u2019m at a certain age, and I grew up in a certain way, in a certain country, in a certain time, I tend to have certain values, that are not dissimilar from other people in society. So they might like my pictures. Whereas someone who grew up in a different society might make more insightful photographs than mine, but not be recognized. Recognition is not necessarily a proof that my pictures are good. I don\u2019t know what the proof is that pictures are really good or not. I have no idea. So I\u2019ll leave it to others to judge. I don\u2019t want to do that. I don\u2019t see any right answers.<\/p>\n
JPC<\/strong> As well as technical transparency, do you work on achieving personal transparency as well?<\/p>\nGH<\/strong> Isn\u2019t that the challenge? And that\u2019s what keeps me going. If there was no place for me to go with that, I\u2019d quit tomorrow. I don\u2019t care about technique. I don\u2019t care about pyro. That\u2019s just technical stuff. I always feel I\u2019m excited to go out and maybe I\u2019ll find another one of those pictures, the kind that makes people cry. But, I\u2019m really thinking of myself. I\u2019m looking for that transcendent moment. That\u2019s what does it for me. That\u2019s my aphrodisiac. That\u2019s my heroin. That\u2019s my LSD. The opium of the mind for me is seeing patterns and shapes that have a wordless meaning. I think the best meaning is wordless. I think the best experiences are wordless. There\u2019s a voice in you that you have to protect. You\u2019ve got to protect that opening. The best example of this is when you look out of the corner of your eye, see something, and slam the breaks on. Those are great moments. When those happen, all of the skill, all of thoughts, and all of the philosophy vanish \u2013 at that point, you\u2019re just a camera operator. God\u2019s laid all of this out for you perfectly. Just think of it like Moonrise Over Hernandez. Ansel had to get on top of the car and just do it with no time to think about anything.<\/p>\nJPC<\/strong> Those who have been practicing a discipline have the benefit of experience. They\u2019re prepared. Perhaps this is the freedom that comes with discipline, it brings a freedom to be more mindful of the moment.<\/p>\nGH<\/strong> To recognize the moment and be able to capture it. Absolutely. I think that\u2019s really the key. That\u2019s where all of that technical training comes in. It\u2019s like playing the piano, you have to practice it. I used to practice setting the tripod up, getting the camera out, getting the lens on, setting it up. Weston said that he could do that in less than two minutes. I thought, “By God, I want to do that too.” I worked on that until I could. The idea is you\u2019ve got to be nimble. You get to the point where you don\u2019t have to think about it, it becomes automatic. If it isn\u2019t automatic you\u2019re going to miss things. You may well miss the greatest ones. When I\u2019m out on my own, when I\u2019m gone for a month at a time, I become a very different person. I become feral. I become very emotional. I open that up and let it flow so I can be receptive to everything. It\u2019s photography from before dawn to after dark. I don\u2019t get tired because the energy comes from some other place, it just flows through me. I love it. I\u2019m more excited now about photography than I have been at any time in my life. And that\u2019s amazing to me. I\u2019m so surprised to see that happening.<\/p>\nJPC<\/strong> After all that work, you\u2019ve made a lot of decisions, both about personal lifestyle and technique, you\u2019re still surprised?<\/p>\nGH<\/strong> I\u2019m still surprised. You know, I don\u2019t look back, I only look right now. I always feel like there is much more for me to learn. I don\u2019t know what that is, but it\u2019s there someplace. And photography helps teach that to me.<\/p>\nJPC<\/strong> I\u2019m hearing and interesting thing happening here. On the one hand we\u2019re talking about the acquisition of a formidable technique; control through discipline. And on the other hand, we\u2019re talking about maintaining a spontaneous sense of being, preserving the ability to be surprised, losing control; freedom through discipline. Controlled abandon?<\/p>\nGH<\/strong> It\u2019s the ultimate in simplicity from that standpoint. No wonder it took me so long. What a slow learner. It\u2019s only been five years since I arrived, and I\u2019ve been at this a long time. I woke up one morning, I was photographing someplace, and it occurred to me that I am a photographer!<\/p>\nJPC<\/strong> That\u2019s a very interesting moment. What did that feel like for you?<\/p>\nGH<\/strong> It felt … lightheaded. It started with a sense of recognition, and then there was a quiet feeling. “That\u2019s it. Whatever it is, good or bad, I\u2019m a photographer.” I am no longer separate from that definition in my mind. And I probably never will be, no matter what I do.<\/p>\nJPC<\/strong> Are you describing a sense of knowing what a photographer is or of simply coming to peace with yourself.<\/p>\nGH<\/strong> I think it\u2019s more of the latter. I\u2019ve gone through so many periods of technical change, where I thought I really got the technique, but something still wasn\u2019t quite adequate. I still may not be totally happy, but I feel I\u2019ve come to terms with my medium. And, for whatever it\u2019s worth, here I am. I have to stand with this.<\/p>\nJPC<\/strong> As I looked at your photographs today, strong as the compositions were, it seemed to me that many of them were there just to hang light upon. So many of them seemed to be about the experience of light. There are certain qualities of light that keep appearing. You\u2019re pushing both ends of the scale, very high light detail, very low shadow detail. But, I sense that this is not simply a matter of pursuing technical \u2018perfection\u2019, I sense that there is an emotional connection to those tones. I\u2019m wondering what those kinds of light suggest for you? What do they evoke? How are you relating to them on a personal level?<\/p>\nGH<\/strong> I think those two things are related, that is the light and the emotional content. I\u2019m reaching here, because I\u2019ve not thought about it in quite that way before. Light is everything. I\u2019ll drive all day in foggy weather and there\u2019s nothing happening, and I\u2019m very subdued, and all of a sudden the light will open up, and I dash all over the place, and I\u2019m happy. I\u2019m really responding to that light. It\u2019s not that I\u2019m unhappy driving around in the fog, it\u2019s just that there\u2019s no juice going into the circuits. The light provides that for me. The light is everything. If you don\u2019t understand and have a feeling for the light nothing will happen in your photographs. I feel very emotional when the light turns on for me. There\u2019s liquid light that occurs just after a storm passes. The sun comes out and everything is shimmering gold. I just about come right out of body when that happens. My emotions follow the light. If the light\u2019s not there, I won\u2019t photograph the thing. I don\u2019t care about the thing at all. If it doesn\u2019t express itself, if it doesn\u2019t respond back with light, then there is no reason to photograph it. It doesn\u2019t attain anything special. It doesn\u2019t achieve some altered sense of itself until light comes. We\u2019re never photographing the rock, we\u2019re only photographing the photons that come off of it. We\u2019re photographing not only the thing, the reflection, we\u2019re photographing the air that\u2019s in between. It really is an undefined, three dimensional space, out there, that we\u2019re photographing, rather than just the thing, the object. Weston was able to reveal some inner sense of the things he\u2019d photograph. He\u2019d stare at something for a long time until he would sense that. That\u2019s a good exercise. That occasionally happens to me but most of the time I\u2019m just following light. I never thought of it that way. You\u2019re absolutely right.<\/p>\nJPC<\/strong> Do you ever see your own work through other\u2019s eyes?<\/p>\nGH<\/strong> I see it as not mine. When I hang it up on the wall, it is no longer mine. It\u2019s like, I don\u2019t know who did this.<\/p>\nJPC<\/strong> Is this humility? Is it respect for the work? Do you feel you\u2019ve moved beyond it? Where does that sense come from?<\/p>\nGH<\/strong> I\u2019m moving on to the next piece. What I do is right now. I\u2019m done with that for now, so when I put them up on the wall, they look like they belong to the world not like they belong to me anymore. This is not alienation. It\u2019s a lack of possessiveness. That\u2019s one of the reasons I have such a hard time pricing my work. Someone asked Imogene Cunningham, “What picture do you value the most?” Instantly she said, “My next one.” I love that. That\u2019s a great statement. That\u2019s exactly how I feel, I just want to go out and shoot. I have this passion to shoot.<\/p>\nI got in big trouble. I started using roll film a few years ago. I felt that my view camera work was getting formulaic. So I put the view camera aside and I started using hand held, 645 and 35mm. It produced an explosion of vision in all directions. I was able to do things visually that you can\u2019t do with a view camera. I loved it. But I also got about 300 rolls behind on developing. I had this big bag of exposed film and it began to gnaw on my mind that I had to do something about it. I didn\u2019t know where I was then. I have to develop my images to see where I am. Finally, I did develop them. Now I\u2019m back to the view camera with a fresh eye. I\u2019m using a lot wider variety of lenses than I did before. The interesting thing about using a view camera is that because it is physically demanding, we subconsciously begin to play it safe with a view camera. I think the images over time, if you don\u2019t watch it, become safe. The photographer has got to watch about the inevitable entropic slide toward a static, repetitive formula. You\u2019ve got to constantly be on guard about that.<\/p>\n
JPC<\/strong> Every success is a potential rut?<\/p>\nGH<\/strong> It really is. I think every technical thing that we learn adds to that tendency. And yet, there is the old saying, “If it ain\u2019t broke, don\u2019t fix it.” which is also true. You\u2019ve got to be open to new things and at the same time you don\u2019t want to just play around. I feel a photographer should change formats once in a while just to be changed, just to be looking differently.<\/p>\nJPC<\/strong> They do each encourage a different kind of looking and I think it is important to understand those differences.<\/p>\nGH<\/strong> Exactly. Look differently. To some extent, I think it\u2019s a disease of experience.<\/p>\nJPC So, what\u2019s the cure?<\/p>\n
GH<\/strong> The cure is just take a deep breath and try something new. Turn on. Don\u2019t just go out when you think everything is perfect. Force yourself to go out at least one day a week in conditions like this \u2013 heavy rain. Go out and drive, because somewhere something will happen. You may get the picture you\u2019ve been looking for forty years. Another thing that really has a big impact on that is expectation.<\/p>\nJPC<\/strong> Try to find the perfection in everything and every moment?<\/p>\nGH<\/strong> Exactly. Go out without expectations. Expectations are the biggest killer of making creative photographs. You\u2019ve got it in your mind that you\u2019re going to this ghost town, and you\u2019ve got all these visions in your mind of what you think a ghost town should be. Then you drive there and you\u2019ve missed all the photographs between here and there because you\u2019re only thinking about the town. Then you get there, it isn\u2019t what you expected, and now you have nothing. If you\u2019d pulled off the road you might have found something. I actually force myself to pull off the road randomly. I have no intention of doing anything. Sometimes there will be something there for me. I do random things like that just to jar my mind. It\u2019s like a Zen slap. It wakes me up. I\u2019m more afraid of myself than I am any other photographer or teacher. It\u2019s me that\u2019s the problem. So I work on that all the time.<\/p>\nJPC<\/strong> This doesn\u2019t really fly in the face of the zone system, the notion of previsualizing.<\/p>\nGH<\/strong> Not at all, because I think the previsualization occurs almost instantaneously with recognition. They should happen together. Following that comes all the technical issues. If you think about it, way ahead of time, that\u2019s expectation.<\/p>\nI like to look at older pictures of masters because it shows them to be human. They did a lot of bad pictures, just like I do a lot of bad pictures. We need to do a lot of bad pictures. We learn from those mistakes. The only way we can learn is to practice.<\/p>\n
JPC<\/strong> Emmet Gowin was reminiscing about Harry Callahan recently. Harry old him, “The only difference between you and me is I\u2019ve made more bad pictures than you have. Of course, I\u2019ve made more good ones too.” That was his way of saying, just do the work.<\/p>\nGH<\/strong> That\u2019s brilliant. He turned it right around.<\/p>\nSometimes I look at a trip, all this work, and I think, “I didn\u2019t do it this time.” I scoop them all up and try again. That\u2019s all you can do. But isn\u2019t it great when one or them works? It\u2019s marvelous. Ansel is right, he said, “If you shoot a lot and work hard, if you get a dozen a year that\u2019s good.”<\/p>\n
Gordon Hutchings<\/h2>\n
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<\/p>\n
John Paul Caponigro <\/strong>In a nutshell, what\u2019s great about pyro?<\/p>\n Gordon Hutchings<\/strong> Morley Baer said it best in the introduction to my book. Pyro gives every photographer the opportunity to speak with conviction. Basically, from a technical standpoint it allows you to not be afraid of highlights anymore. You can print them right up to the ragged edge and you\u2019re going to get detail. It\u2019s going to give you those deep rich shadows. Otherwise, you hold back the highlights to be safe, so you don\u2019t blow them out.\u00a0 I don\u2019t have to worry about that anymore. It\u2019s almost impossible to overexpose a pyro negative. I proved to myself over and over again that you almost can\u2019t burn out because it compensates not only in the film, but it compensates when you print it. That\u2019s the magic of the stained pyro highlight. I will photograph right into light while other photographers are putting their cameras away. They literally can\u2019t do it with some film and developer combinations. It\u2019ll just burn out. But the pyro will go on and on and on. If I can see it, I can shoot it. And that gives me a great feeling of confidence. It allows you to see in new ways. It\u2019s a great tool to handle any kind of light. It\u2019s only a tool though.<\/p>\n JPC<\/strong> Which comes first, vision or technique? Or do they develop in parallel?<\/p>\n GH<\/strong> That\u2019s a good question. I have no idea. Probably technique comes first. Probably people learn a little more about technique than they know what to do with it. I certainly did. I think that happens. One person that I learned from was an old highway patrol police photographer. By God this was technique! And he didn\u2019t have any idea what he was photographing. But that was all right, I learned good lab technique from him. I try to learn something from everybody, even if I have to leave them behind after awhile. You have to know something about the technique. If you don\u2019t, your pictures won\u2019t achieve the level that you want them to. There are so many people who don\u2019t want to go through the lessons of the technique and their pictures show it. They don\u2019t match up to the vision that they think they have. Although, there are a lot of sharp pictures around that don\u2019t show anything. Ansel said, “There\u2019s nothing worse than a sharp picture of a fuzzy concept.” I think that may be true. At some point your technical skill fails you. You know, you learn a new technique and you go out and shoot. And then your vision starts to improve, you start seeing more, and then the technique isn\u2019t adequate anymore. I think that is a natural learning process. Photography is a natural combination of both the eye and the hand. They both have to work together. So you\u2019ve got to progress in both. I never stop learning. I like the whole process of photography.<\/p>\n JPC<\/strong> Do you find it difficult to work in a tradition that is so established, one that favors certain kinds of subject matter and certain kinds of looking?<\/p>\n GH<\/strong> At some point you simply have to start. My heroes were Weston and Adams. I guess I was pretty derivative of that kind of work, for a long time, and maybe my pictures still are. But, I totally ignore that. I feel completely free. I carefully avoid the art speak. I just don\u2019t want anything to do with it. I know how easy it is to sway a person\u2019s mind. I see myself and this search that I have, this inner journey. It\u2019s so easy to get pulled aside. That\u2019s why I never wanted to make a living at photography. I\u2019ve done it several times, in bits and pieces, and almost always you end up changing what you\u2019re trying to do to please other criteria.<\/p>\n What I\u2019ve done is maintained an almost feral attitude toward any kind of commercialism or the art world. I\u2019ve dabbled in all of them and I never have liked what I\u2019ve seen. I\u2019ve always chaffed at the bit at any kind of control or authority. So I have just avoided it. I just can\u2019t stand having anything impact what I\u2019m trying to do. Creativity is such a delicate little voice, and there are so many obstacles in the way.<\/p>\n If you think of the pure time that you spend in doing your creative work, it\u2019s actually very small. Most of the time it\u2019s all the rest of living. If you can spend a day or two a month, you\u2019re actually doing pretty well compared to what so many people do. Even if you\u2019re a full time artist, you\u2019re spending very little time doing what you want to do. So I decided early on, after I dabbled in commercial photography and fine art, that I would rather have a day job. I\u2019ve worked part time for about 30 years for Caltrans, which is a state department of transportation in California. I work half time for them. I worked full time for awhile and I waited for an opportunity. Sometimes, when they\u2019re lean, they like to get rid of people. And they owed me some favors. I said that I\u2019d like to go half time. They said they never let a professional go half time before but since they needed to get rid of people, they allowed me to do that. So I worked a week on, a week off. I worked five days and then I had nine off. Being in civil service, I had all the medical benefits. I retired a few years ago. I retired pretty young. That was my way of keeping myself economically free so I could do what I wanted.<\/p>\n Opposing that view is somebody like Morley Baer who felt that you have to be in photography professionally if you\u2019re going to be a photographer. That man, with an iron will, would force the world to his bidding. He was wonderful, no matter what the assignment was, he always carved out time for his own photography. He\u2019s one of the few that I could see who, with resoluteness, would do that. But I chose this other path, which, for me, worked fine. I liked it and I never regretted it. I don\u2019t consider myself a professional. Once again, I consider myself an amateur. I like that status. I\u2019m proud to be an amateur.<\/p>\n JPC<\/strong> Sounds like beginner\u2019s mind.<\/p>\n GH<\/strong> You\u2019re speaking to a Buddhist.<\/p>\n I would not presume to think I\u2019ve come that far. I would never presume that. The other day someone was saying, “Well isn\u2019t your work somewhat derivative? It\u2019s not relevant anymore.” I got to thinking. “My God, I would love to be as irrelevant and free as a cloud or a mountain.”<\/p>\n You can see when people start out they\u2019re very young, they\u2019re experimenting with everything, and they\u2019re doing this, and they\u2019re doing that, and they\u2019re learning, and they\u2019re doing great. But they have no work at this point and it takes them a while. As you learn what makes sense to you and as you learn what pleases something inside of you, then that begin to narrow down those options. You\u2019re not interested in this. There\u2019s nothing wrong with it, you\u2019re just not interested in it. I eventually zeroed in on the silver print. I like the window effect. That\u2019s what I look for.<\/p>\n JPC<\/strong> The print as a window?<\/p>\n GH<\/strong> Yes, the print as a window. I want me, and I want the technique, to be out of the way of the viewer. Now I can\u2019t remove me entirely. That\u2019s impossible. But I want the viewer to be able to float in there as free as can be. That\u2019s why I use the large format and the pyro. I push the technique as hard as I can.<\/p>\n JPC<\/strong> Technical transparency?<\/p>\n GH<\/strong> Exactly. I want it to be transparent.<\/p>\n In the eastern traditions, craft and art are almost indistinguishable. One becomes the other. There\u2019s the perfect brush stroke in calligraphy. That\u2019s craft and purity all wrapped in the one thing, one moment. Wouldn\u2019t that be nice if we could do that? That\u2019s why I pursue the transparent window. That\u2019s what I\u2019m looking for. Whether or not it works for other people or not is not really a prerequisite for me. It\u2019s greatly edifying to me that other people like to look at my work. But, it\u2019s a very personal search. Because I\u2019m at a certain age, and I grew up in a certain way, in a certain country, in a certain time, I tend to have certain values, that are not dissimilar from other people in society. So they might like my pictures. Whereas someone who grew up in a different society might make more insightful photographs than mine, but not be recognized. Recognition is not necessarily a proof that my pictures are good. I don\u2019t know what the proof is that pictures are really good or not. I have no idea. So I\u2019ll leave it to others to judge. I don\u2019t want to do that. I don\u2019t see any right answers.<\/p>\n JPC<\/strong> As well as technical transparency, do you work on achieving personal transparency as well?<\/p>\n GH<\/strong> Isn\u2019t that the challenge? And that\u2019s what keeps me going. If there was no place for me to go with that, I\u2019d quit tomorrow. I don\u2019t care about technique. I don\u2019t care about pyro. That\u2019s just technical stuff. I always feel I\u2019m excited to go out and maybe I\u2019ll find another one of those pictures, the kind that makes people cry. But, I\u2019m really thinking of myself. I\u2019m looking for that transcendent moment. That\u2019s what does it for me. That\u2019s my aphrodisiac. That\u2019s my heroin. That\u2019s my LSD. The opium of the mind for me is seeing patterns and shapes that have a wordless meaning. I think the best meaning is wordless. I think the best experiences are wordless. There\u2019s a voice in you that you have to protect. You\u2019ve got to protect that opening. The best example of this is when you look out of the corner of your eye, see something, and slam the breaks on. Those are great moments. When those happen, all of the skill, all of thoughts, and all of the philosophy vanish \u2013 at that point, you\u2019re just a camera operator. God\u2019s laid all of this out for you perfectly. Just think of it like Moonrise Over Hernandez. Ansel had to get on top of the car and just do it with no time to think about anything.<\/p>\n JPC<\/strong> Those who have been practicing a discipline have the benefit of experience. They\u2019re prepared. Perhaps this is the freedom that comes with discipline, it brings a freedom to be more mindful of the moment.<\/p>\n GH<\/strong> To recognize the moment and be able to capture it. Absolutely. I think that\u2019s really the key. That\u2019s where all of that technical training comes in. It\u2019s like playing the piano, you have to practice it. I used to practice setting the tripod up, getting the camera out, getting the lens on, setting it up. Weston said that he could do that in less than two minutes. I thought, “By God, I want to do that too.” I worked on that until I could. The idea is you\u2019ve got to be nimble. You get to the point where you don\u2019t have to think about it, it becomes automatic. If it isn\u2019t automatic you\u2019re going to miss things. You may well miss the greatest ones. When I\u2019m out on my own, when I\u2019m gone for a month at a time, I become a very different person. I become feral. I become very emotional. I open that up and let it flow so I can be receptive to everything. It\u2019s photography from before dawn to after dark. I don\u2019t get tired because the energy comes from some other place, it just flows through me. I love it. I\u2019m more excited now about photography than I have been at any time in my life. And that\u2019s amazing to me. I\u2019m so surprised to see that happening.<\/p>\n JPC<\/strong> After all that work, you\u2019ve made a lot of decisions, both about personal lifestyle and technique, you\u2019re still surprised?<\/p>\n GH<\/strong> I\u2019m still surprised. You know, I don\u2019t look back, I only look right now. I always feel like there is much more for me to learn. I don\u2019t know what that is, but it\u2019s there someplace. And photography helps teach that to me.<\/p>\n JPC<\/strong> I\u2019m hearing and interesting thing happening here. On the one hand we\u2019re talking about the acquisition of a formidable technique; control through discipline. And on the other hand, we\u2019re talking about maintaining a spontaneous sense of being, preserving the ability to be surprised, losing control; freedom through discipline. Controlled abandon?<\/p>\n GH<\/strong> It\u2019s the ultimate in simplicity from that standpoint. No wonder it took me so long. What a slow learner. It\u2019s only been five years since I arrived, and I\u2019ve been at this a long time. I woke up one morning, I was photographing someplace, and it occurred to me that I am a photographer!<\/p>\n JPC<\/strong> That\u2019s a very interesting moment. What did that feel like for you?<\/p>\n GH<\/strong> It felt … lightheaded. It started with a sense of recognition, and then there was a quiet feeling. “That\u2019s it. Whatever it is, good or bad, I\u2019m a photographer.” I am no longer separate from that definition in my mind. And I probably never will be, no matter what I do.<\/p>\n JPC<\/strong> Are you describing a sense of knowing what a photographer is or of simply coming to peace with yourself.<\/p>\n GH<\/strong> I think it\u2019s more of the latter. I\u2019ve gone through so many periods of technical change, where I thought I really got the technique, but something still wasn\u2019t quite adequate. I still may not be totally happy, but I feel I\u2019ve come to terms with my medium. And, for whatever it\u2019s worth, here I am. I have to stand with this.<\/p>\n JPC<\/strong> As I looked at your photographs today, strong as the compositions were, it seemed to me that many of them were there just to hang light upon. So many of them seemed to be about the experience of light. There are certain qualities of light that keep appearing. You\u2019re pushing both ends of the scale, very high light detail, very low shadow detail. But, I sense that this is not simply a matter of pursuing technical \u2018perfection\u2019, I sense that there is an emotional connection to those tones. I\u2019m wondering what those kinds of light suggest for you? What do they evoke? How are you relating to them on a personal level?<\/p>\n GH<\/strong> I think those two things are related, that is the light and the emotional content. I\u2019m reaching here, because I\u2019ve not thought about it in quite that way before. Light is everything. I\u2019ll drive all day in foggy weather and there\u2019s nothing happening, and I\u2019m very subdued, and all of a sudden the light will open up, and I dash all over the place, and I\u2019m happy. I\u2019m really responding to that light. It\u2019s not that I\u2019m unhappy driving around in the fog, it\u2019s just that there\u2019s no juice going into the circuits. The light provides that for me. The light is everything. If you don\u2019t understand and have a feeling for the light nothing will happen in your photographs. I feel very emotional when the light turns on for me. There\u2019s liquid light that occurs just after a storm passes. The sun comes out and everything is shimmering gold. I just about come right out of body when that happens. My emotions follow the light. If the light\u2019s not there, I won\u2019t photograph the thing. I don\u2019t care about the thing at all. If it doesn\u2019t express itself, if it doesn\u2019t respond back with light, then there is no reason to photograph it. It doesn\u2019t attain anything special. It doesn\u2019t achieve some altered sense of itself until light comes. We\u2019re never photographing the rock, we\u2019re only photographing the photons that come off of it. We\u2019re photographing not only the thing, the reflection, we\u2019re photographing the air that\u2019s in between. It really is an undefined, three dimensional space, out there, that we\u2019re photographing, rather than just the thing, the object. Weston was able to reveal some inner sense of the things he\u2019d photograph. He\u2019d stare at something for a long time until he would sense that. That\u2019s a good exercise. That occasionally happens to me but most of the time I\u2019m just following light. I never thought of it that way. You\u2019re absolutely right.<\/p>\n JPC<\/strong> Do you ever see your own work through other\u2019s eyes?<\/p>\n GH<\/strong> I see it as not mine. When I hang it up on the wall, it is no longer mine. It\u2019s like, I don\u2019t know who did this.<\/p>\n JPC<\/strong> Is this humility? Is it respect for the work? Do you feel you\u2019ve moved beyond it? Where does that sense come from?<\/p>\n GH<\/strong> I\u2019m moving on to the next piece. What I do is right now. I\u2019m done with that for now, so when I put them up on the wall, they look like they belong to the world not like they belong to me anymore. This is not alienation. It\u2019s a lack of possessiveness. That\u2019s one of the reasons I have such a hard time pricing my work. Someone asked Imogene Cunningham, “What picture do you value the most?” Instantly she said, “My next one.” I love that. That\u2019s a great statement. That\u2019s exactly how I feel, I just want to go out and shoot. I have this passion to shoot.<\/p>\n I got in big trouble. I started using roll film a few years ago. I felt that my view camera work was getting formulaic. So I put the view camera aside and I started using hand held, 645 and 35mm. It produced an explosion of vision in all directions. I was able to do things visually that you can\u2019t do with a view camera. I loved it. But I also got about 300 rolls behind on developing. I had this big bag of exposed film and it began to gnaw on my mind that I had to do something about it. I didn\u2019t know where I was then. I have to develop my images to see where I am. Finally, I did develop them. Now I\u2019m back to the view camera with a fresh eye. I\u2019m using a lot wider variety of lenses than I did before. The interesting thing about using a view camera is that because it is physically demanding, we subconsciously begin to play it safe with a view camera. I think the images over time, if you don\u2019t watch it, become safe. The photographer has got to watch about the inevitable entropic slide toward a static, repetitive formula. You\u2019ve got to constantly be on guard about that.<\/p>\n JPC<\/strong> Every success is a potential rut?<\/p>\n GH<\/strong> It really is. I think every technical thing that we learn adds to that tendency. And yet, there is the old saying, “If it ain\u2019t broke, don\u2019t fix it.” which is also true. You\u2019ve got to be open to new things and at the same time you don\u2019t want to just play around. I feel a photographer should change formats once in a while just to be changed, just to be looking differently.<\/p>\n JPC<\/strong> They do each encourage a different kind of looking and I think it is important to understand those differences.<\/p>\n GH<\/strong> Exactly. Look differently. To some extent, I think it\u2019s a disease of experience.<\/p>\n JPC So, what\u2019s the cure?<\/p>\n GH<\/strong> The cure is just take a deep breath and try something new. Turn on. Don\u2019t just go out when you think everything is perfect. Force yourself to go out at least one day a week in conditions like this \u2013 heavy rain. Go out and drive, because somewhere something will happen. You may get the picture you\u2019ve been looking for forty years. Another thing that really has a big impact on that is expectation.<\/p>\n JPC<\/strong> Try to find the perfection in everything and every moment?<\/p>\n GH<\/strong> Exactly. Go out without expectations. Expectations are the biggest killer of making creative photographs. You\u2019ve got it in your mind that you\u2019re going to this ghost town, and you\u2019ve got all these visions in your mind of what you think a ghost town should be. Then you drive there and you\u2019ve missed all the photographs between here and there because you\u2019re only thinking about the town. Then you get there, it isn\u2019t what you expected, and now you have nothing. If you\u2019d pulled off the road you might have found something. I actually force myself to pull off the road randomly. I have no intention of doing anything. Sometimes there will be something there for me. I do random things like that just to jar my mind. It\u2019s like a Zen slap. It wakes me up. I\u2019m more afraid of myself than I am any other photographer or teacher. It\u2019s me that\u2019s the problem. So I work on that all the time.<\/p>\n JPC<\/strong> This doesn\u2019t really fly in the face of the zone system, the notion of previsualizing.<\/p>\n GH<\/strong> Not at all, because I think the previsualization occurs almost instantaneously with recognition. They should happen together. Following that comes all the technical issues. If you think about it, way ahead of time, that\u2019s expectation.<\/p>\n I like to look at older pictures of masters because it shows them to be human. They did a lot of bad pictures, just like I do a lot of bad pictures. We need to do a lot of bad pictures. We learn from those mistakes. The only way we can learn is to practice.<\/p>\n JPC<\/strong> Emmet Gowin was reminiscing about Harry Callahan recently. Harry old him, “The only difference between you and me is I\u2019ve made more bad pictures than you have. Of course, I\u2019ve made more good ones too.” That was his way of saying, just do the work.<\/p>\n GH<\/strong> That\u2019s brilliant. He turned it right around.<\/p>\n Sometimes I look at a trip, all this work, and I think, “I didn\u2019t do it this time.” I scoop them all up and try again. That\u2019s all you can do. But isn\u2019t it great when one or them works? It\u2019s marvelous. Ansel is right, he said, “If you shoot a lot and work hard, if you get a dozen a year that\u2019s good.”<\/p>\n